[
9:25 PM] One of the annoying television news media trends since 9/11 and continuing through the war in Afghanistan and now Iraq is the habit of inviting unqualified guests on news shows to discuss complex foreign policy issues—especially issues that have a distinct military or technical element. “Christopher Hitchens, can Saddam build a nuclear weapon?”
This morning on Wolf Blitzer’s morning show on CNN, the trend continued with a twist. Wolf invited Deborah Perry of the Independent Women’s Forum to discuss Iraq and WMD with
Joseph Cirincione of the Carnegie Institute for International Peace. Cirincione is one of the best analysts in the field of nonproliferation. He’s written extensively about the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, and his book Deadly Arsenals: Tracking Weapons of Mass Destruction is on the shelf of every weapons analyst working. It’s unclear what Perry’s expertise and her
bio doesn’t shed any light on the subject. After watching the show it was clear that security issues weren’t her forte. Cirincione cleans her clock. It’s worth reproducing the transcript at length not only for the delight of seeing an administration apologist struggle with basic issues over which men and women are dying in Iraq, but also to hear a leading analyst talk intelligently about the matter—something the networks seem to avoid in favor of the likes of fellow journalists who have no extensive experience these issues
WOLF BLITZER: An assertion that Iraq was shopping for uranium in Africa, 16 words in the President Bush's State of the Union address, 16 words that have come back to haunt the Bush administration.
[…] Let's talk a little bit about it.
Joe, some people are beginning to conclude, even some hawks going into the war, supporters of the war, that, well you know what? Maybe Hans Blix was right, maybe Dr. Mohamed ElBaradei were right, maybe there was no smoking gun because there were no weapons of mass destruction.
JOE CIRINCIONE, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT: Well, the U.N. inspections look a lot better now than they did there just in the few months going up to the war when there were so many critics depicting these as people as bumbling Inspector Clusoes (ph). It turns out they were doing a good job. There are no weapons of mass destruction, at least on the level that the president and the officials in the administration claim. There was no ongoing production. There is certainly -- and this is the most important point -- there was no reconstituted nuclear weapons program. There was not an imminent need to go to war.
BLITZER: Go ahead, Deborah.
DEBORAH PERRY, INDEPENDENT WOMEN'S FORUM: Well, all I can do is respond by saying Iraq is a very complicated place. Obviously there are miles and miles of tunnels underneath buildings and a lot of areas that we haven't even explored yet. We've explored a very small percentage at this point. We've got to remember that we've got to take into account hundreds of thousands of pieces of intelligence that we received since 1989 and prior to that, and we've got to figure out how to follow up best that we make sure as few points fall through the cracks and that we keep our country safe.
BLITZER: Joe, we keep hearing Iraq is the size of California.
CIRINCIONE: Well, it is. Most of that is desert, but you can't build a nuclear bomb in the desert. There are known facilities for this kind of activity. We have had thousands of troops -- American, British, Australian troops -- and experts over there for the last three months. We've been to over 250 top sites. And as the Marine general in charge of this operation said, we have found nothing.
And the problem that presents for the president is that we're going to find something. There will be some mustard gas shells, there will be some parts, there will be some plans, but there isn't this large, ongoing WMD program -- not nuclear, not chemical and not biological. So, why did we have to go to war? Why couldn't we let the inspections work?
PERRY: Well, that was one reason why we went to war, and they don't necessarily have to be assembled in Iraq. Things can be produced there. It can be assembled elsewhere. We still don't know. I mean, this is a very new situation that we're exploring. It's been an issue that has been really getting tumultuous over the years. We're going to be learning a lot as the months come. We could be sitting here now in two weeks and discover weapons of mass destruction.
BLITZER: Let's take a caller. Linda from Connecticut, go ahead with your question.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for taking my call. I'm wondering how it is that we could have spent so many millions of dollars investigating a blue dress in the last administration and not be curious about how those 16 words came into the State of the Union. Should we not call for an independent council to investigate who it allowed it into his speech? And why if they were not sure of that information did it get into it?
BLITZER: What about that?
CIRINCIONE: Well...
BLITZER: Let's let Deborah answer that.
PERRY: Well, that actually is taking place now, and I'm all for accountability. But again, we've got to remember all of the bits and pieces of human intelligence. We rely on foreign nationals. We rely on foreign governments. We do the best we can. It is not an exact science. We've got to be able to continue to rely on foreign individuals that are going to provide to us information, and we'll have to decide how credible or not it is.
BLITZER: Go ahead, Joe.
CIRINCIONE: Yes, but you're dodging the question. What she's asking is: How did those 16 words get in the speech? You know, the president would like this debate to be over. That's what he said. His press secretary said it's over. We don't have to talk about this anymore. Well, Condoleezza Rice, the national security advisor, just re-raised the issue on the talk shows with Donald Rumsfeld yesterday. They're now claiming that, in fact, those 16 words are accurate -- that it was accurate. A Clintonesque (ph) definition, you raised the blue dress, we're back to those Clinton definitions. What's the definition of, "is?" What's the definition of "weapon of mass destruction?"
They're trying to have it both ways. They want it over. And the reason Condoleezza Rice is spinning it this way is it turns out, according to "The New York Times" on Saturday, it was her staffed, Robert Joseph, Bob Joseph, who insisted on putting this sentence in the speech. So, Condoleezza Rice is protecting not just the president, but herself and the National Security Council staff by insisting that it be over.
BLITZER: Well, they sort of tried to parse words -- and I'll let Deborah respond -- that the British government, in precise words, say that Iraq sought to buy uranium in Africa. Well, historically they did seek to buy uranium at some point, yellow cake, in Africa.
PERRY: You know, what's interesting...
BLITZER: But technically they're parsing their words.
PERRY: Right. Here, we're having this debate where we want to have collaborative efforts and we shouldn't go at this alone. So, we're in a situation where we were reliant on a foreign government who was providing information.
BLITZER: But it's one thing to rely on a foreign government and to get intelligence when you suspect they're right, but when the intelligence professionals suspect they're wrong and they themselves have come up with an opposite conclusion, do you still go ahead and rely on that foreign government?
PERRY: I think you do the best you can under the circumstances. You know, we've got to remember, we are in a post-9/11 world, where we never thought airplanes would be used as weapons. And so, we've got to be able to filter out the good from the bad, the credible from the non-credible.
BLITZER: She says err on the side of caution.
CIRINCIONE: Well, Deborah, I mean, you're being a little disingenuous here. If this was a Democrat you'd be ripping him up one side and down the other.
PERRY: I'm all for accountability, there's no question about it.
CIRINCIONE: Well...
PERRY: And we can go back and have an investigative council look into this. There is no question about that, but...
CIRINCIONE: Excellent. Then we agree on that. We need a congressional investigation.
BLITZER: All right, let's take another caller. Ray, go ahead. You're in California.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I'm going to say, I'm a little disappointed, because I think the biggest issue, which I don't hear anybody making reference to, is the fact that there are innocent Iraqi citizens, and more importantly to me, American soldiers that are dead as a direct result of this information. I would think that above and beyond anything regarding who did it, the CIA or whoever, the president and the staffers should be calling for an investigation for their sake, I mean, if for no other reasons. Don't you think the same thing? Thanks.
BLITZER: Well, I think both of our guests, Ray, already said they agree, there should be some sort of investigation. And a lot of people, even some Republicans, want that investigation. Richard Shelby, one of the former chairmen of the Senate Intelligence Committee, yesterday told me he'd like to see such an investigation. There are other Republicans saying go ahead with an investigation as well.
Let's get to an e-mail for Deborah. This is from Rick in Pennsylvania: "The vice president's office, the CIA and the NSA knew months before that the information about Iraq trying to acquire nuclear material was false. They removed it from a speech from October. It was simply a scare tactic to get people to support the war, and it worked."
PERRY: Well, I don't think that's the case. I don't know that to be a fact; I don't know it not to be a fact. Again, we've got to rely on 18 different intelligence agencies that we have here domestically, not to mention trying to work in concert with other foreign governments, foreign nationals on the ground. We do the best we can with the resources we've got. I think if anything 9/11 was a real wakeup that we need to do a better job of having a less bureaucratic intelligence system.
BLITZER: We've got -- Joe, this from Jim in Columbia, California, echoing a point we made earlier, but let's get your reaction to this. "There was no mistake in the State of the Union address. The sentence is technically accurate. Get over it. Move on to a new topic. Stop picking on Bush."
CIRINCIONE: Well, the problem is, the president meets a higher standard, must meet a higher standard. It's not enough to say it was technically accurate, that the British intelligence said this. The question is: Is it true? Is he being honest with the American public? And that's where he's falling down, and the administration officials are continuing to spin now, because it's not just the uranium from Africa. It's also the whole question of: Was there a reconstituted nuclear program?
And this is the first claim they've had to withdraw. Condoleezza Rice was on television yesterday defending the aluminum tubes story, and once again she was disingenuous. She said that most analysts agree that these aluminum tubes could be used for nuclear weapons. She neglected to say that the two most important agencies -- the Department of Energy and the State Department, the people who know the most about it -- disagreed. We need a full vetting of all of the information we had.
BLITZER: Deborah, go ahead.
PERRY: Well, I think while that's great on its face and it absolutely sounds idealistic in a perfect world, it's never going to be the case. We're never going to be able to discern always between credible and non-credible evidence. We do the best we can with the resources we've got, and that's what we've got to continue to do, so that we can ensure not just a safer country for ourselves, a safer world, that we actually start to resolve some conflicts in the Middle East beyond Iraq.
CIRINCIONE: If we can't determine between credible and non- credible evidence, I don't know what we're paying these guys for. Of course, we can determine that. As one of your callers said, guys are dying because we went to war. There's a kid in Iraq dying every day now, and that's why the American public is concerned about it. They're making the link between soldiers dying and possibly administration officials lying.
BLITZER: Joe, you're a respected analyst. You've been around this community a long time. Do you believe that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction ready to use against the United States or its friends in the region on the eve of the war?
CIRINCIONE: No. Precisely the way you said it. We all thought there were some weapons there. I still think there are some weapons there, but this was never a debate over weapons; it was over war. Did we have to go to war to eliminate that threat? And it's obvious now that there were not programs on the scale the administration said. There were no weapons ready to go. I'm telling you, if there were, there was a large-scale production, if there were dozens of Scuds, we would have seen it by now. We've had hundreds of Iraqis coming out to us with information.
Interesting that Wolf doesn’t ask Deborah her opinion on the existence of WMD prior to the war.
BLITZER: Let's take another caller from Georgia. Betty, go ahead.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm calling from Memphis, Tennessee.
BLITZER: Tennessee. Go ahead, Betty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think I was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) 9/11, I almost believed anything the president said. I watched his State of the Union address, and I really believed it was weapons of mass destruction, you know, there. And I don't know. I can't believe anything now because, you know, they are not showing the weapons. Nobody can seem to find anything.
BLITZER: Deborah?
PERRY: Well, you know, it's one thing about our society. We want things done on an expedient basis, just like our foreign policy has been carried out for some time. I think there are a number of reasons why we originally went to war. I think weapons of mass destruction has become the Achilles heel, if you will.
BLITZER: But that was the most important reason.
PERRY: Absolutely. But there has been legitimate evidence to believe there was weapons of mass destruction, and there was an imminent threat carrying out throughout the nation as well, not only through Iraq, but through countries...
(CROSSTALK)
Stupid and disingenuous question from the host alert
BLITZER: But, Joe, I was in Kuwait on the eve of the war. I saw a lot of U.S. troops. They all got their full chemical suits on. They had their gas masks. I had a gas mask. We were all told, you know, get ready, it's probable, it's almost certain that there is going to be a chemical or a biological attack. Get ready for it. They went in there fully dressed for these protective purposes. Do you think that the Central Command General Tommy Franks would order a quarter of a million U.S. and British forces to go into Iraq dressed for that contingency if they didn't believe it to be the case?
CIRINCIONE: Well, you had to be ready for the worst case, and so you have to prepare for that kind of thing. There's no question about it. But clearly what happened was we relied much more heavily on defector information, and you can see it as you go back over the documents. A defector says he went to 20 sites where there were chemical and biological weapons. It turns out they were wrong. And this is exactly the kind of intelligence failure that we have to get to the bottom of. It's not enough to have a defector tell you this. It turns out they saw protective gear and they thought, well, there must be weapons there, but there weren't. The defector information was wrong. We never should have been relying on those guys for our plans to go to war.
BLITZER: Briefly, Deborah, the last word. Go ahead.
PERRY: I think we're absolutely on the right track. I think we went to war for the right reasons. We are making progress. We're creating a democracy that is tremendous. It can be a model for the rest of the Middle East, and that can make us live in a much safer world.
Even Wolf joined in on the inanity with the “question” about the chemical suits. It’s clear how much networks enjoy this debate format; and they went with the right person in Cirincione to have a genuine discussion on WMD. The network just couldn’t resist the temptation to add a combative factor and of course they chose someone eager to pick a fight over politics but less than familiar with the issues (to put it kindly). How does this help inform the public?